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For it is dead and reborn as the fairies.
Replies: >>1686 >>1732
>>1681 (OP) 
Are you actually asking?
"Paganism" doesn't refer to a specific religion. It just means anything that's not Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

Although sometimes what people have in mind with that label are the previous European religions from before Christianity. The last European religions were in large part variations of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE), or Western Steppe Herder, religion. In Northern Europe, it was almost entirely versions of the PIE religion which were followed. In Southern Europe, the religions were a mix of PIE culture and a bit of Early European Farmer or Mediterranean culture.

The PIE religion is a very interesting subject in my personal opinion because it is possible to reconstruct many pieces of it using the comparative method. For example, it should be possible to know the PIE cosmogony and devise a narrative similar to Genesis 1:1-2:3. In fact, Genesis 1:1-2:3 is based on Plato's Timaeus, so in a way, Europeans never completely lost a European cosmogony.
Replies: >>1688 >>1741 >>1850
>>1686
Yes.

Well, what are the primary currents of it in the modern world. There is Wicca and the goddess religions, there is new age, and there are the cults of norse, celtic, romano/greek (ignoring the vast differences between the two). Not so much the egyptian or the gaulic, etc. Then there are the Eastern lot, hindu, shinto, and so on. Most of these are very superficial and the majority are degenerate. One anon here mentions Lugh, but very little of what that means to him. Nothing has been said of the others. I want to know more, but non-kiked resources are hard to find.

In this case, Paganism means European cults, esp. the ones promoted by the RW Paganists.

>The PIE religion is a very interesting subject
Yes. It was monotheistic in the beginning then heno, than pan, then animist or nihilist and fully decayed. There is always the first great being or existence whence all came.

As to Plato, he was after Moses and the Israelites/hebrews were a White people in those days..
Replies: >>1689 >>1741
>>1688
>As to Plato, he was after Moses and the Israelites/hebrews were a White people in those days..
There is no archaeological evidence that the Torah was written before the life of Plato. Russell Gmirkin has made an excellent case that the authors of the Torah were essentially plagiarizing Plato and Hellenistic culture in general.
Replies: >>1690
>>1689
Link?
Replies: >>1691
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>>1690
Plato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts
You need to get this book if you want to see Gmirkin's comparisons. It's freely available on Library Genesis. I won't be available to help you find a specific page number for a bit, but Gmirkin has done many interviews on YouTube which can give you a broad overview.
https://youtu.be/SZvzyaCocss
Replies: >>1717 >>1730
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>>1691
All right. Here are some tables from the book. Of particular interest is Table 4.6 on page 93.

The beginning of Genesis is pulled straight from Plato's Timaeus.
Replies: >>1718
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>>1717
>>1691
TY. What evidence do you specifically have to support your claim that Plato predated Moses. These tables are interesting, but hardly that.
Replies: >>1736
>>1681 (OP) 
A slur that radical urban dwelling Christians used against traditionalist Roman rural folk who were still practicing the old way instead of some foreign eastern religion.
Replies: >>2205
>>1730
>What evidence do you specifically have to support your claim that Plato predated Moses.
First of all, there's no evidence the Torah was written by Moses. The Bible doesn't even claim Moses wrote it. This is just some fan fiction Jews came up with but it stuck around because it sucks admitting the authors are anonymous and the origin of the tales was lost.

Anyway, I hope at the very least it's obvious that one party was inspired by the other. If you accept the comparisons at face value, the only question left remaining is which direction did the influence flow. Gmirkin has spent considerable time exploring this by writing three books so I can't really explain everything in a few posts:
• Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the PentateuchPlato and the Creation of the Hebrew BiblePlato’s Timaeus and the Biblical Creation Accounts: Cosmic Monotheism and Terrestrial Polytheism in the Primordial History
(These are all on Library Genesis)

Off the top of my head I remember one of his arguments was that Greeks tended to cite the people who inspired them and list the author of a work. They would provide the names of philosophers are such in their writings, while the Pentateuch is completely anonymous and cites no authorities on any topic (a fact in itself that is alarming). So basically if there was influence from the Levant to Greece, the expectation is that a Greek writer such as Plato would have referred to some person in the Levant as a source.

A very important argument goes back to Gmirkin's first book on the subject. For a very long time Mesopotamian and Near Eastern mythological elements have been noticed in the Bible, and this was used to reinforce the dogmatic and orthodox maximalist chronology where these stories are supposed to be older than 1000 BC. But Gmirkin exposed that these Mesopotamian elements were not taken from an extraordinarily ancient inheritance but rather from the Greek language text Babyloniaca by Berossus which firmly situates the Pentateuch within a Hellenistic context no older than 281 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babyloniaca_(Berossus)

The last of his arguments I will mention for the time being is the existence of the Elephantine papyri. Gmirkin explains that they demonstrate that no Jewish religion (i.e., following the laws of the Torah) existed at that time. They did not follow Biblical law because it did not exist yet. This is further confirmed by archaeology in Israel where it has been discovered people ate pork despite supposed Biblical restrictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri_and_ostraca
https://tntribune.com/pig-skeleton-raises-questions-about-ancient-jewish-identity-kosher-diet/

As an aside I'd like to mention that all Levantine groups examined have Greek admixture (That means partial Greek ancestry) in addition to their native Levantine ancestry that goes back to the Iron Age. This includes Samaritans, Palestinians (Christian and Muslim) and Jews, so I do not think it is unlikely at all that the Levant received Greek culture since they all received some amount of Greek genes.
 
While writing this response I noticed Wikipedia recently decided Russell Gmirkin is a non-person (doesn't meet notability requirements) and deleted his page. This is incredible considering how well known he is now in academic Bible studies for opening the door to the origin of the Pentateuch. I think he made some Jews upset because exposing how the oldest Jewish literature is largely of Hellenistic origin hurts their egos and interferes with the Jewish nationalist narrative.
(sorry I had to delete for corrections twice)
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>One party by the other
Either Plato was inspired by Moses or they both wrote from common themes. Look at every creation myth, there are similarities. Heck you can track Aryans/Noahidics by the folk lore alone. 

>So it's suspicious that the Pentateuch doesn't follow the stylistic norms of Greek philosophy. 
It wasn't written by Greeks. Why would it follow their traditions. That's a mark against. Not for.

Berorossus. Is this an accurate summary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babyloniaca_%28Berossus%29
The creation myth of the Bible is less degenerate than the one put forth here. Any influence would be backward to your assumption.

Archaeological evidence shows that some Israelites didn't keep the torah.....when the whole point of the biblical narrative is that the Israelite didn't keep the torah. Looks like Gmirkin skipped all the scrolls of the prophets. He argues that Plato couldn't have been influenced by Hebrews, because he would have said so if he was
and even that assumes that we have all the writings of Plato, which we obviously do not.

Shame that the Wikipedia page was deleted. I'd like to see what it said. See picrel.

Here is the review mentioned: https://annas-archive.org/scidb/10.1093/jts/flm136/

>The bulk of Gmirkin’s book is taken up with the demonstration that parts of the primeval history of Genesis 1–11 are dependent upon Berossus and not on any earlier version of Babylonian traditions, as many scholars believe, and parts of the story of the exodus from Egypt are likewise taken from Manetho’s treatment of the expulsion of the Hyksos. All references to the stories of Genesis or Exodus in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, such as the numerous allusions in Second Isaiah to creation, to the flood story, to the patriarchs, to the exodus and sea crossing, to the wilderness journey, are disqualified as unreliable for dating the Pentateuch and are therefore not even considered. Gmirkin identifies the culprit in the misdating of the Pentateuch as Wellhausen’s Documentary Hypothesis, with its early dating of the J source to the ninth century BCE, which creates grave difficulties in accounting for parallels to the late version of the Babylonian flood story and the Erra Epic in the primeval history. Only when these esoteric Babylonian texts were rendered into Greek could bilingual Jews have access to such traditions for the creation their own literary works.

>The author appears to have very detailed knowledge of his Hellenistic sources and presents lengthy critical discussion of minute details, but he shows an appalling ignorance of what has actually happened in Pentateuchal studies since Wellhausen. Thus many of his arguments against the dating of Genesis and Exodus simply attack a straw man that has little bearing on Pentateuchal studies today. A number of scholars have long advocated a dating for the Pentateuchal sources later than the one he uses for his arguments, which would gravely undercut the book’s thesis. It is also remarkable that the author engages in the most detailed source-critical analysis of the Greek texts but dismisses the use of source criticism for the Pentateuch without discussion. In place of any critical analysis of biblical texts, there is only the random selection of parallels in support of his argument.

>This kind of special pleading dominates the whole book.

Etc. etc.
Replies: >>1743
>>1686
>>1688
>Well, what are the primary currents of it in the modern world. There is Wicca and the goddess religions, there is new age, and there are the cults of norse, celtic, romano/greek (ignoring the vast differences between the two). Not so much the egyptian or the gaulic, etc. Then there are the Eastern lot, hindu, shinto, and so on. Most of these are very superficial and the majority are degenerate. One anon here mentions Lugh, but very little of what that means to him. Nothing has been said of the others. 

>I want to know more, but non-kiked resources are hard to find.
Does anyone know where to find such?
>>1740
>Look at every creation myth, there are similarities.
Gmirkin even highlights linguistic similarities at the word level—not just thematic parallels.

>>So it's suspicious that the Pentateuch doesn't follow the stylistic norms of Greek philosophy. 
>It wasn't written by Greeks. Why would it follow their traditions. That's a mark against. Not for.
Listen to me again. I think you misunderstood something. Starting with the assumption that one copied the other, the expectation if Greeks copied Jews is that Plato would refer to a Semitic source in his writings.

>The creation myth of the Bible is less degenerate than the one put forth here.
Not relevant.
Let me emphasize again that the majority of the creation myth is taken from Hellenistic culture, mostly Plato. The Mesopotamian elements are in fact there, but they play a minor role.
>Any influence would be backward to your assumption.
Again, I think you misunderstood something. These Mesopotamian elements are a generally recognized element of the Pentateuch and they have been used in support of an older chronology where the authorship is older than 1000 BC, because Mesopotamian cultural elements are considered archaic.
However, Gmirkin made a whole book where he argues the direct source of the Mesopotamian cultural elements was a Greek text written in 281 BC. He was able to do this because Berossus gives a unique delivery of old mythology that readily betrays its much younger age. If Gmirkin is right that the Pentateuch is dependent on Babyloniaca and not inherited Mesopotamian mythology that naturally made its way into the Levant without the help of Greek speakers, then it is impossible to assign a particularly ancient date for the authorship of the Pentateuch as a whole. The most you could possibly do to rescue some of it is to argue that there is an old text mixed in with the new material somewhere, but Gmirkin has covered a lot of these 5 books, so there's not much left to consider. Your quoted review summarizes right here:
<Only when these esoteric Babylonian texts were rendered into Greek could bilingual Jews have access to such traditions for the creation their own literary works.
Replies: >>1749
>>1746
>linguistics
You are aware of the pre-existent, massive amount of cultural cross-pollenization through the Egyptians, Phoenicians, and the Doric & Anatolian Semites? The Greek alphabet is even derived from a proto-Semitic source. That's not even counting the unified Aryan/Noahidic origins of these peoples.

>Greeks copied Hebrews...Where credit?
See above. Also, consider that Plato often used 2nd and 3rd hand sources. A link is easily dropped or malformed. Look at all the corruptions in the bestiaries and ridiculous lifespans. Also,
>that assumes that we have all the writings of Plato, which we obviously do not.

>similarities
See above. The stuff, Gmirkin names as similarities show up in most creation myths. 

>Let me emphasize again that the majority of the creation myth is taken from Hellenistic culture, mostly Plato. The Mesopotamian elements are in fact there, but they play a minor role.
What do you have to support your claim outside of...common theological, mythological, and philosophical concepts that show up in indo-euro creation myths.

You pick one line that kinda supports your argument and you've completely ignored:
>All references to the stories of Genesis or Exodus in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, such as the numerous allusions in Second Isaiah to creation, to the flood story, to the patriarchs, to the exodus and sea crossing, to the wilderness journey, are disqualified as unreliable for dating the Pentateuch and are therefore not even considered. 

>Gmirkin identifies the culprit in the misdating of the Pentateuch as Wellhausen’s Documentary Hypothesis, with its early dating of the J source to the ninth century BCE, which creates grave difficulties in accounting for parallels to the late version of the Babylonian flood story and the Erra Epic in the primeval history. Only when these esoteric Babylonian texts were rendered into Greek could bilingual Jews have access to such traditions for the creation their own literary works.

>The author appears to have very detailed knowledge of his Hellenistic sources...but...appalling ...ignorance of what has actually happened in Pentateuchal studies since Wellhausen. 

>Thus many of his arguments against the dating of Genesis and Exodus simply attack a straw man that has little bearing on Pentateuchal studies today....the author engages in the most detailed source-critical analysis of the Greek texts but dismisses the use of source criticism for the Pentateuch without discussion. In place of any critical analysis of biblical texts, there is only the random selection of parallels in support of his argument.

Let's pull out some more:
>Gmirkin places great stress on the ‘striking similarities’ between the Pentateuch and his Greek sources, but quickly discounts the major differences between them. Thus, if some features in the biblical text have known similarities with Babylonian traditions that are not found in the extant portions of Berossus, he asserts that they were probably in the longer original text of Berossus, because for him Berossus is the only way in which Babylonian influence could have reached the Pentateuchal authors in Alexandria. In the case of Manetho, the radical differences between his account of the expulsion of the Hyksos and the biblical exodus from Egypt are explained as a polemical response to counter ‘the slanderous version of Jewish origins found in Manetho’, even though he also argues that Manetho knew nothing about any such Jewish traditions and made no mention of them! This kind of special pleading dominates the whole book!

>The parallels discussed by Gmirkin are found in only a very small portion of the Pentateuch and the rest of it is largely ignored, including the close correspondence between the casuistic laws in Exodus 21–2 and the Hammurabi Code, which was certainly not in Berossus. 

>The only explicit mention of a Jewish tradition in any early Greek source has to do with Moses leading the expelled Israelites out of Egypt, conquering the land of Judaea and founding Jerusalem. However, the biblical story of the conquest under Joshua and the capture of Jerusalem under David lie completely outside of the Pentateuch!

>Some scholars have been advocating a Hellenistic dating for much of the Hebrew Bible, including the Pentateuch. If this book is an example of how this position is to be defended, then it cannot hope to gain much support. There is no serious engagement with biblical scholarship in the area of literary criticism or in the textual criticism of the Septuagint, which results in so many obvious mistakes in these areas. Likewise, Gmirkin’s treatment of the history of pre-Hellenistic times, especially the Hyksos, is very weak. Consequently, it is also hard to take seriously the apparent erudition in those parts that reflect the author’s expertise. The book can be used only with great caution.

>This kind of special pleading dominates the whole book.
Replies: >>1758
>>1743
You even took the line out of context.
Replies: >>1755
>>1749
>You even took the line out of context.
Yes, because it didn't seem to me that you understood the premise which that line states. I thought it was helpful to quote it along what I just said since it reiterates the same thing.
Replies: >>1756
>>1755
The premise that Genesis derives from Babylonian creation myths in any way is foundationally flawed. It is a separate, less corrupt accounting of the same events. Here is that stance earlier.
>The creation myth of the Bible is less degenerate than the one put forth here. Any influence would be backward to your assumption. 

>ninth century BCE, which creates grave difficulties in accounting for parallels to the late version of the Babylonian flood story and the Erra Epic in the primeval history.
Those parallels were created by Israelite influence in 500BC. The cases of Babylonian-Bible similarity have been gotten backward.

All that: https://annas-archive.org/scidb/10.1093/jts/flm136/
Is doing is refuting Gmirkin's validity and his Plato argument.
The whole Mesopotamian part is an different argument.
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>No wikipedia page
Here's his website:
https://russellgmirkin.com/biography-and-publications

>My father was Vasia Gmirkin, whom journalist Tom Mangold described as "in his time the closest thing the CIA had to James Bond
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>>1748
I don't find your quoted review to be very compelling. It seems like an excuse to ignore Gmirkin's findings which are a great leap forward for Old Testament studies and avoid exploring what he actually says.

I prefer dealing with explicit claims and details. It's necessary to get down into the weeds here.
<Thus, if some features in the biblical text have known similarities with Babylonian traditions that are not found in the extant portions of Berossus, he asserts that they were probably in the longer original text of Berossus
This protest falls flat. Read what Gmirkin would say in defense:
<it is important to take into account the fact that we lack the entire original account of Berossus and have to rely on the abridged excerpts of Alexander Polyhistor,

If we don't have the complete account of Berossus, all that truly matters is if there are signs that Genesis was directly inspired by the parts of Berossus we do have rather than the original Mesopotamian versions. I've decided to collect some excerpts from Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus. As far as I can see Gmirkin is successfully demonstrating that Genesis most closely matches the accounts of Berossus. Because this is the whole point, the main thesis, no matter what criticism your review puts forth, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Gmirkin is doing the work that needs to be done to make his case.
Replies: >>1759 >>1768
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>>1758
some more
Replies: >>1760
>>1759
https://vridar.org/2018/10/12/hebrew-bible-of-hellenistic-origin-gmirkin-responds-to-anthoniozs-review/
<In my view, it is methodologically improper to attempt to gain a picture of Judaism in the monarchic (Iron II), Babylonian or Persian eras on the basis of the Pentateuch, since there is no objective external evidence for Pentateuchal writings in pre-Hellenistic times. Quite the contrary, the Elephantine papyri of ca. 450-400 bce give provide strong contemporary evidence for the character of Judaism as practiced late into the Persian Era. These archives of letters (and ostraca) from the Jewish military colony of Elephantine, an Egyptian southern border fortress located just below the First Cataract of the Nile, attest to a thriving Judaism in Egypt with their own temple but no Aaronic priesthood, a Judaism without scriptures, a Judaism which accommodated polytheism, a Judaism with no knowledge of Abraham, Moses, or any other figure known from the Pentateuch or Hebrew Bible (as shown by the absence of these famous figures from the many Jewish names found in the archives). The Jews of Elephantine celebrated a purely agricultural Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread (TAD A4.1) with no associated traditions regarding Moses or Exodus. They possessed a seven day week, but no sabbath of rest
Replies: >>1763 >>1768
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>>1760
https://vridar.org/2016/10/26/the-pentateuchs-debt-to-greek-laws-and-constitutions-a-new-look/
<But what if on closer inspection we see that much in the Pentateuch is closer in both broad outline and specific details to the writings about Greek constitutions and laws (especially as found in Aristotle and Plato) than anything we find on the Syrian-Mesopotamian side of Palestine? And what if the earliest external evidence for the Pentateuch places it no earlier than the third century BCE (ca 270 BCE), by which time Judeans were known to be in Alexandria’s Great Library and exposed to the best of Classical Greek writings, including Aristotle’s history and description of the Athenian Constitution and Plato’s discussion of ideal laws?
Replies: >>1764 >>1768
>>1763
I think it's time to point out the genetic evidence again.
If Jews have influenced Greeks, why is it that we find significant Greek admixture in Levantine populations, but not signficant Levantine admixture in Classical Greeks?

The appearance of admixture signaling the source of cultural influence has many precedents. In the case of Greeks, it is Proto-Indo-European admixture which shows us that Western Steppe Herders were ultimately responsible for bringing Indo-European culture and language to Greece.
Replies: >>1768
>>1758
>picrels
These are pure conjecture of the most baseless sort.
>2nd set
More conjecture, but some interesting stuff shows up.
Berrorussus was circa 3rd-century BC. After the Israelite exile into Babylon. You've got it backward again.
>>1760
The region where the practice was paper records and the wars and burnings unending.
Again:
>Archaeological evidence shows that some Israelites(Far split from their brethren) didn't keep the torah...when the whole point of the biblical narrative is that the Israelite didn't keep the torah.
During a rather low point in piety as recorded by the Bible. Not proof of anything.
>>1763
That's a very broad and poor level of comparison. It is also wrecked by the later books of the Bible, which according to your false account were written, when?
>>1764
Genetics for that whole area are messier than anything else on earth. The Milesians, Phonecians, Sea Peoples, Doric Semites like Sparta, Alexander's conquest, Hyksos, Gauls, Persians, Arabs, and more are attested to in the record. So too in the records, the Levent, as Egypt was mostly White, the Hebrews were White, the Isrealites were mostly White. The Edomites, some Canaanites, Arabs, etc. were not. As to cultural influence, the Maccabees have the whole issue. Given the sheer resistance of the Temple and the Maccabees to anything that was vaguely Greek in thought or tradition, that does not bear out your fruit.

You do not consider the Israelite influence on Babylon myth. Nor do you consider the derivation from shared traditions which is accounted. You also overlook:
>In the case of Manetho, the radical differences between his account of the expulsion of the Hyksos and the biblical exodus from Egypt are explained as a polemical response to counter ‘the slanderous version of Jewish origins found in Manetho’, even though he also argues that Manetho knew nothing about any such Jewish traditions and made no mention of them! 

>The parallels discussed by Gmirkin are found in only a very small portion of the Pentateuch and the rest of it is largely ignored.

This argument is at loggerheads. You will hold your stance. I will hold mine. Let's go back to pantheism. 
>Well, what are the primary currents of it in the modern world. There is Wicca and the goddess religions, there is new age, and there are the cults of norse, celtic, romano/greek (ignoring the vast differences between the two). Not so much the egyptian or the gaulic, etc. Then there are the Eastern lot, hindu, shinto, and so on. Most of these are very superficial and the majority are degenerate. One anon here mentions Lugh, but very little of what that means to him. Nothing has been said of the others. 

>I want to know more, but non-kiked resources are hard to find.
Replies: >>1774
>>1768
>Berrorussus was circa 3rd-century BC. After the Israelite exile into Babylon. You've got it backward again.
Look, I was going to drop this but what in the fuck are you talking about? Nothing is "backwards". The Babylonian captivity has nothing to do with this. Babyloniaca, a Greek language text, was not written until the the 3rd century BC (what you just said) and there is evidence that Genesis is dependent specifically Babyloniaca rather than older Mesopotamian literature. This strongly suggests that the Pentateuch as a whole unified composition could not have been written until after Berossus.

What is it that you don't understand about this? I do not care if you believe this or not. Show me that you understand the premise.
Replies: >>1775
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>>1774
You are are aware of the Ketef Hinnon scrolls:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketef_Hinnom_scrolls

They contain portions from the book of Numbers late 7th or early 6th century BC. Far before your ridiculous theory has the Torah written.

You are are aware of the Samaritans who split from the Israelites about 750 BC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans

They use the Samaritan Pentateuch. See picrel for the slight differences.

There is no way that philo-Hellenist jews in Egypt created the Pentateuch and the Septuagint from whole cloth, then the rabidly anti-Greek priesthood of Israel adopted that, then the rabidly anti-Israelite and anti-Greek Samaritan priesthood adopted that from them. 

It'd be rather like the Catholics creating a new holy book from the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita, then the whole of Protestantism adapting it. 

As to Babyloniaca. It's either a case of mistaken identity, or it is influenced by the Pentateuch, which the Israelites brought to Babylon about 200 years "before" Berrorussus was born. You've got the influences backward.

You're so tied to this elaborate narrative that Plato "is" Moses and that the Genesis creation myth is a adaption or influenced by the Mesopotamian myths that you cannot even consider the inverse, which is less convulated, more coherent, and has the benefit of dates lining up. 

God Bless.
Replies: >>1777
>>1775
>You are are aware of the Ketef Hinnon scrolls:
They don't contain any substantial material. It's not enough to show a Torah existed at that stage.
Two things must be distinguished:
• The earliest possible date of the composition of various source materials into a unified work
• The oldest source of textual inspiration within the composition

If you are unwilling to make this basic distinction, you will never concede what the evidence suggests straightforwardly: Parts of the Pentateuch are dependent on a very late Greek language work.

>You are are aware of the Samaritans
Doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence that their textual tradition is old enough to matter.

>There is no way that philo-Hellenist jews in Egypt created the Pentateuch and the Septuagint from whole cloth, then the rabidly anti-Greek priesthood of Israel adopted that, then the rabidly anti-Israelite and anti-Greek Samaritan priesthood adopted that from them. 
These are just a bunch of underlying assumptions about the social and political context during the time the Pentateuch was authored. It doesn't help us judge the evidence available.

>It's either a case of mistaken identity, or it is influenced by the Pentateuch
Use Occam's razor.

>the inverse, which is less convulated,
I don't know what you're talking about.
Replies: >>1781
>>1777
What a waste of a get.
>Occam's razor
Let's see...
Philo-Hellenist Jews in Egypt created the Pentateuch and the greater Septuagint, mostly from Plato, decided to use a random Greek translation of Mesopotamian myth instead of something more Greek, maybe added a little tradition to a narrative that spans 4000 years and is disconcertingly accurate to times they'd have little/no knowledge of. Then the rabidly anti-Greek priesthood of Israel adopted that, then the rabidly anti-Israelite and anti-Greek Samaritan priesthood adopted that from them. 
Or...
Moses and Plato had nothing to do with each other. Some ideas are universal. The Torah is at least 750BC. And Mesopotamian myth was influenced by the Torah used by Israelites who lived there.
Draw your own conclusions, anons.

>Doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence that their textual tradition is old enough to matter.
You've missed the argument. The fact that they have the same tradition and split 750BC, means that the tradition is at least that old. The acrimonious relationship supports this. They would not use anything created by the other at a later date. 
>These are just a bunch of underlying assumptions about the social and political context during the time the Pentateuch was authored. It doesn't help us judge the evidence available.
<It doesn't matter, because I said so.

>I don't know what you're talking about.
See above.

This doesn't bear out your point, fren. Your conclusions are unsound.

So anyways, lets get back on topic:
>Well, what are the primary currents of it in the modern world. There is Wicca and the goddess religions, there is new age, and there are the cults of norse, celtic, romano/greek (ignoring the vast differences between the two). Not so much the egyptian or the gaulic, etc. Then there are the Eastern lot, hindu, shinto, and so on. Most of these are very superficial and the majority are degenerate. One anon here mentions Lugh, but very little of what that means to him. Nothing has been said of the others. 

>I want to know more, but non-kiked resources are hard to find.
Replies: >>1784
>>1781
When I said you should use Occam's razor, I was referring to how you want to suppose that Babyloniaca was somehow influenced by the Pentateuch despite being a Babylonian work based on much older Mesopotamian mythology that was written with the purpose of educating Hellenistic audiences about Babylonian society and history after the conquests of Alexander the Great. There is no sign of Levantine mythology in Babyloniaca. Its Mesopotamian foundation is too old to be the result of Levantine influence during the Babylonians captivity. The difference between Babyloniaca and older Mesopotamian lore is merely one of presentation. I have no idea how this would indicate Levantine influence. The hypothesis is perverse. Believe it or not, not everything is an ambiguous inkblot test where you can see whatever you want. You really can judge direction of influence in some cases, and your insistence otherwise suggests you are merely allergic to it.

>Some ideas are universal.
In other words it's just a coincidence that everything from blatant plagiarism to clear sources of inspiration can be identified. My stance is that some ideas are contagious and we can trace their spread.

>The Torah is at least 750BC.
No evidence

>And Mesopotamian myth was influenced by the Torah used by Israelites who lived there.
Your idea is a ridiculous fanfic. There are clear parallels between three textual sources:
• Mesopotamian texts such as the Enuma Elis (the oldest texts)
• Babyloniaca by Berossus.
• the Pentateuch
Babyloniaca is obviously a late derivative of older Mesopotamian texts, and when the Pentateuch is compared to the two, it has the most direct affinity with Babyloniaca. There is no escaping the conclusion that the Pentateuch has been inspired by a late edition of Mesopotamian culture.

>The fact that they have the same tradition and split 750BC
There is no evidence of a split in the textual tradition that old. Do you know something nobody else does? If a "split" occured at that stage, you are referring to something else entirely that has nothing to do with correctly dating the Pentateuch.

I've said what I want to say. Even if you reply again I don't find it necessary to respond again since I'm derailing your thread.
Replies: >>1785
>>1784
You obviously can't comprehend the idea that the Babyloniaca is the Enuma Elish influenced by the Genesis account. Both having recordings of the same event with Genesis being less corrupt. This also lines up with the dating far better than your mess of maybes.

>Ideas...universal
Funny how that works. It's almost like indo-euro/aryan/noahidics have a unified origin. It's even funnier how the further back you go, the more monotheism and the One God/Sky Father becomes apparent and that the records of Greeks, Hindis, Mesopotamians, Shinites, Egyptians, Mayans, etc. all reinforce this.

You also cannot comprehend what evidence is:
See:
The Samaritans who split from the Israelites about 750 BC use the Samaritan Pentateuch which is the same text, with some differences irrelevant to our debate.
>Doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence that their textual tradition is old enough to matter.
You've missed the argument. The fact that they have the same tradition and split 750BC, means that the tradition is at least that old. The acrimonious relationship supports this. They would not use anything created by the other at a later date.  There is no way that philo-Hellenist jews in Egypt created the Pentateuch and the Septuagint from whole cloth, then the rabidly anti-Greek priesthood of Israel adopted that, then the rabidly anti-Israelite and anti-Greek Samaritan priesthood adopted that from them.

It'd be like the Catholics creating a new holy book from the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita, then the whole of Protestantism adapting it.

God Bless.
Replies: >>1819
>>1785
>It's even funnier how the further back you go, the more monotheism and the One God/Sky Father becomes apparent
No. Even PIE religion had The Sky Father, The Earth Mother and their many daughters. No monotheism there.
>The Samaritans who split from the Israelites about 750 BC use the Samaritan Pentateuch which is the same text, with some differences irrelevant to our debate.
>>Doesn't mean anything. There's no evidence that their textual tradition is old enough to matter.
>You've missed the argument. The fact that they have the same tradition and split 750BC, means that the tradition is at least that old.
How do you know they split off from the Israelites that long ago?
>There is no way that philo-Hellenist jews in Egypt created the Pentateuch and the Septuagint from whole cloth, then the rabidly anti-Greek priesthood of Israel adopted that, then the rabidly anti-Israelite and anti-Greek Samaritan priesthood adopted that from them.
Just because you think someone wouldn't do something doesn't mean they wouldn't.
>It's even funnier how the further back you go, the more monotheism and the One God/Sky Father becomes apparent
<Even PIE religion had The Sky 
Father, etc
Poor reading comprehension. Isn't it interesting how the further back you go, the less detailed the rest, the fewer gods.

The Sky-Shepherd is the most attested and held to be first always...
Atum, Heaven/Dao attested to by Lao Tzu, God Almighty, the Great Spirit, Ur-Chaos of the Greeks, Ahura Mazda, the hindi Trimurti. The pattern is always, there is nothing and God, He makes all, He makes lesser great beings, they are elevated over Him, He is partly forgotten. Then a prophet/reformer comes along and the whole pattern starts over again.

Do you believe in gods?

<How do you know they split off from the Israelites that long ago?
Because they say so, so did the Judeans. Also, the Gerizim temple goes back to 500 BC, Sargon's annals, etc. 

<Just because you think someone wouldn't do something doesn't mean they wouldn't.
>It'd be like the Catholics creating a new holy book from the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita, then the whole of Protestantism adapting it.
Would this happen?
Replies: >>1840
>>1823
>Isn't it interesting how the further back you go, the less detailed the rest, the fewer gods.
Do you think that by repeating this it becomes true?
><How do you know they split off from the Israelites that long ago?
>Because they say so, so did the Judeans.
And you believe those inbred retards? Also, simply because the gerizim temple existed in 500 BCE doesn't mean the people who worshiped in that temple practiced the religion described in the torah.
>>It'd be like the Catholics creating a new holy book from the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita, then the whole of Protestantism adapting it.
>Would this happen?
They adopted the progressivist teachings pretty quick, so yeah I think if they were pressured into it, it could happen.
Replies: >>1841
>>1840
Sorry for namefagging. I was on /b/ for a bit and forgot to remove the name.
Replies: >>1849
>>1841
ok SAD JUNKIE 🙄
Replies: >>1853
45316415f3a4908a4017864b31a0e7c90e8b13cb44117096bfd3263a2be5a434.jpg
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>>1686
>It just means anything that's not Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
That is a interpretation of recent centuries. In Latin times it meant 'hill dweller' or 'one who lives in rural places'. Properly it referenced where and/how they lived. It was the 'religions of the cities' vs the 'religions of the wilds' but it also had implications with the slave morality of a tax subject vs a 'barbarian aristocrat'.

>pāgānus
>Of or pertaining to the countryside, rural, rustic.
Replies: >>2205
>>1849
I got the name from a roll thread.
I can't be held responsible for how trash it is.
Replies: >>1855
>>1853
Oh I know which thread you are talking about now you are cursed to be a sad junkie . I just gave my Own name in that thread  instead of rolling. See above
1 Definitions

“Pagan” (Latin: pāgānus, ‘rural’) was supposed to be a slur that was invented by the catholic church to apply to every non-xtian religion but has since been reappropriated as a general term. Specific ethnic “Pagan” polytheistic religions are: Heathenry is Germanic Paganism (“Asatru” is one of the religions that fall under the Heathenry category). Fyrnsidu is Brittonic Paganism. Druidry is Celtic Paganism. Hellenism is Greek Paganism. Religio Romana is Roman Paganism. Rodnovery is Slavic Paganism. Romuva is Baltic Paganism, etc. (despite the different regional names all European Pagan deities are similar. For example, Dyaus Pita (Vedic), Zeus (Greek), Jupiter (Roman), Odin (Nordic), Wotan (German), Esus (Celtic), Wotanaz (Slavic), Ukko and Väinämöinen (Finnish), and so on are all derived from the Aryan allfather Dyeus Pter which translates to Sky Father. The name Zeus comes from the pronunciation of Dyeus, and Jupiter comes from the pronunciation of ‘Dyeus Pter’. Wotan is derived from Proto-Germanic Wodanaz, which itself comes from the Proto-Indo-European root Dyeus. Odin comes from Old Norse and is related to the earlier Proto-Germanic Wodanaz).

2 Cosmology

In general, most polytheistic religious followers fall into two categories: 1)they see the polytheistic deities as sentient personal gods, or 2)they see the polytheistic deities as allegorical personifications/emanations/symbolic representations of natural forces (numen/animism).

But secular paganism is a new movement that is growing rapidly. Atheists join Pagan groups for a sense of community, social network, shared culture, and connection to their ancestry. These Pagans don’t worship a particular thing, they just appreciate the unity of existence, or seek to understand the ultimate nature of reality. Ancestor veneration is the only worship they do.

Many modern secular polytheistic Pagans are inspired by Carl Jung who combined psychoanalysis with Heathenry. The polytheistic deities = ‘archetypes of the collective unconscious’ to these Pagans.

3 Core Beliefs

In Pagan religions, beliefs revolve around ancestor veneration, animism, and the belief in spirits inhabiting natural elements are common themes.

4 Practices and Rituals

In polytheistic religions, rituals are centered around the worship of multiple deities, each often associated with specific aspects of nature, human experience, and societal functions. To secular Pagans who are inspired by Carl Jung, rituals are ways of inducing ‘active imagination’ or a part of the process of ‘individuation’.
>>1732
Underrated

>>1850
>In Latin times it meant 'hill dweller' or 'one who lives in rural places'. 
But pagan was still used in the pejorative by urbanites. Which is why I won’t call myself such. It’s like blacks calling themselves niggers imo.
Replies: >>2209
>>2205
>But pagan was still used in the pejorative by urbanites. Which is why I won’t call myself such. It’s like blacks calling themselves niggers imo.
On that note, redpilled and JQ-pilled individuals need to stop referring to others even jokingly as goy or goyim. It's a loan word of your enemy; only use it for genuine shabbos goy servants specifically as a vile insult. It is also is why mamzer and erev rav are such great insults.
Replies: >>2210
>>2209
It also is why*
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